a new heater design possibility ???

[pa_friendly_guy]

Keep up the Good work. The bricks will add a lot of mass. The Bell will have a lot of mass if it is made of bricks or masonry flue lines. You seem to be on the right track. Bricks can be very forgiving when they are laid up dry. Try a design and see how it works.

[smallhagrid]

Hi Folks.
Today I spent some time trying to scale this idea up a bit by stacking bricks and it really looks as if it can work.
It is a crude stack and in too small a space for my crummy camera to catch it - but as soon as I try it for real I'll share some photos here.

Unfortunately it will be a bit too big for me to use the old stove base so I'll have to improvise some more - but it will also be using only a single barrel the way I see it, so it's all good.

More to come as this develops...

[matt walker]

Hagrid, I don't want to rain on your parade, and by all means, keep experimenting, it's how we all learn. One caveat about the metal stove designs you see on youtube though. I doubt most of the metal stove designs you see are being built by anyone with experience with a standard masonry J tube rocket. Whatever "gains" they think they are getting by tweaking those metal designs are still not getting them anywhere near the efficiency and cleanliness of the burn of just a plain old J. I know this for sure, because an insulated masonry J would eat any one of those stoves within an hour of burning, by which I mean the metal would fail. So, as a general rule, if it's made of metal and it's holding up for more than a burn or two, it's not burning as hot as it needs to to burn all the gasses. If it is working at near the temps ours do, it won't last.

On to that design specifically, there are a lot of examples of built masonry heaters and even rockets that use that same flue configuration, but the easiest, cheapest way to do it is to just build the J and throw a barrel over it. Complexity goes way up using masonry to do it, and without the cooling radiator effect of the barrel, the stoves tend to be finicky. There's a build that Devil'sBrew posted of one of Peter van den Berg's designs with a cooktop and a bench that uses that flue configuration. Up, over, down. It's neat, but I know from experience they can be very hard to balance correctly for good performance.

Ok, that's all, not to discourage you. By all means, experiment away and let us know how it works. I am wrong about all kinds of stuff all the time! So, follow your ideas my friend, and keep us posted.

[smallhagrid]

Hmmmm....methinks the good & benificent admin hast missed parts of the explanation after the 1st OP.

Here's the short of it, ready ???



(Not metals, thank you.)
((Please imagine the above entry with emphasis rather than the shouting it may seem to imply, thanks.))

I figured out a way to expand the old stove base as this is bigger than the J originally planned.

It's presently all stacked and once the exit place is ready I'm going to burn a little paper in it just to see what happens.

Being tall and narrow as it is, it suits the space beautifully, and -IF- it works all I'll do is add a bell to it with some mass inside.

The way I've done it breaks LOADS of 'rules'...and I'll have to accomodate some of these differences - but here is what I care about in general regarding this or whatever idea ends up in use here:

- It is safe enough for this really old house.
- It is better than a straight-out, single-pass box stove heater.
- It uses less fuel than a 'normal' box stove heater.
- It's final exhaust is cool-ish to the touch.
- It fits the space and puts some heat where heat is needed here.

Thus far the odd looking contraption I stacked together today is a really good fit - space wise.

Now... to see if it WORKS at all !?!

Thanks.

[smallhagrid]

Well - it's stacked - and I did a goofy test burn too.

For those who don't get 50 pound paper bags of horse feed - these are great fire helpers as they are made of 3-4 layers of plain paper, and that thin paper is what I used for my test.

Of course there was smoke and it leaked out of all the unsealed joints - but only until it got going, then it stopped rather nicely even though the thing is swiss-cheese holey right now.

Just a wee bit of paper also warmed up that cold room surprisingly much - besides making a bunch of smoke in it.

I grabbed what shots as I could today before my camera's batteries died.

What follows is all I've got until I dig out some batteries and/or a charger...

Here's the cast iron base with just a single porcelain tile on top.
The extra bricks will support the newly added length=>

(Most likely I'll add to those supports later on...)

Same stuff, another angle:


2 courses of 3 porcelain tiles now added:


Another angle:


Bottom course of firebrick (dog thinks there may be a mouse in the room...):


Different angle:


Base, burn tunnel and riser started:


Another view:


Burn tunnel, not covered:


Heat riser:


Down-tube(?) will stand here:


All stacked:


A rough diagram of the flow superimposed on that shot:


The funny looking, banded things on top are kiln ends.
They are just sealed firebrick with thin SS bands around them.
I think they'll make a dandy top once I move them around a little to be better balanced.
(They are not a whole lot bigger than the top despite how funny they look.)

I do know that what I've put together, from a mason's POV is a complete travesty - and I'm OK with that.

This has many good reasons IMO=>
1st - I don't want to cut bricks which I cannot easily replace.
2nd - Structurally it is actually pretty strong just as it is - even without any kind of mortar.
3rd - It is sitting on a very sturdy base with ample margins for barking shins BEFORE knocking it over.
4th - Unless there's an earthquake while there is stuff burning in it, it'll most likely be OK for this season.
5th - I'm no kind of mason, though I do know bricks are supposed to be interlocked.

Next I'll add the stovepipe thing I've got and dangle the flex tube out the window for a better test.

Then it's time to mix up some glop and glue this thing together if all else is well.

Design critique and ideas are welcome.
If anyone has a vastly better stacking idea - please diagram it as that is the only way I'll understand your suggestion...

Lastly - should this be a permanent addition, I may invest a little in the make-your-own clamp stuff, or just use some of that holey banding (that I already have a bunch of) to strengthen this by banding around the outside of it's vertical portion...

Thus far I am quite pleased with this idea - and if I add just a single barrel to it with some mass I think that will be as good as it will get.

Thanks.

[mannytheseacow]

Love it, Hagrid! I'm glad you superimposed the lines because I was admittedly a bit lost just before that. It is pretty amazing how much just paper can get these things producing heat. I'm excited to see what comes out next as you piece it together. You've really come a long way from your first idea to where you are now- it's neat seeing how these things evolve.... I'm curious to see how that "inchworm" flue path works out. Thanks for posting the pictures, too! Like Guy always says, it's so much easier to see what's going on.

[matt walker]

Looks good Hagrid! I did understand that you were using bricks, I didn't mean to imply that yours would fail. In a nutshell, I'm just of the opinion that you could use the same bricks and build a J with a barrel over it and have a better heater. I could elaborate if you'd like me to, but I'm all for encouraging experimentation. It's cool to see something different and if you like it, that's all that matters. I do think it looks pretty cool!

[DevilsBrew]

Have you built a full model outside yet? Really testing the brick stoves out allows you to become more familiar with the design and materials. From my experience of building all brick rockets, the rocket and Russian stoves have to be combined just right to work.

I got hooked on rockets through crazy metal stove inventions. I do think there is a place for the youtube metalsmiths and their importance is overlooked. In general, I have found the renegade metal stove guys to be the most friendly, down to earth, and open-minded. They have taught me that stoves aren't complicated. It's all how you look at it.

[matt walker]

Any updates Hagrid? I'd love to hear how it's coming along, it really is an interesting build. I'm sure we could all learn from your progress here.

[smallhagrid]

Thanks for asking !!
Now that it is nice & cool I'm doing a bunch of stuff all mixed together and part of that is going through my belongings which are stored in the barn here to find hardware & other stuff I need for what I'm doing.

Specifically regarding the heater - since I learned that Kevin Bacon has some smarts in concrete engineering - I asked his advice about 'glueing' the firebricks together using any of what I've got onhand and maybe buying some fine sand to go with it.
His response surprised me a bit - here 'tis:


He's also been doing stuff with his metal version of his omega design=>


And I hope it's OK to post that he hangs out at another forum a little bit, one called Rocket 'Woodstove Forum', here:
http://woodstoves.forumotion.co.uk
It's funny that it is UK based as it's admin is another youtuber who is in the US.
(I confess that I'm biased and wish we could get Kevin posting here as I like this forum better !!!)

Best Wishes to All.