core recipes and parts catalog

[michaelegan]

This is my first post here. Before I start I want to thank you Matt for the way you have shared your work and growing skill with RMH's. You have been respectful, encouraging and inclusive.

I'm moving toward building castings similar to the ones you have done Matt and am still looking for ideas and info on the recipes people are using. It seems that your recipe-- 14 perlite, 14 fireclay, some furnace cement-- is the most quoted and probably used at this point. I would like to see more talk about recipes and what their ingredients do, how they interact with each other, and how to get them. For example, i'm in the midwest and still don't know what fireclay is or how to get it.

The other area I'm looking at is material availability and reviews: furnace cement, fiberglass rolls, fiberglass reinforcers in mixes, ceramic glass, door frames for side loaders, etc. If there was a way to categorize some of these areas such as "recipes", "materials" which included ongoing reviews (stories of success and failure), cost, availability, that would help me greatly and i think others would appreciate it as well.

One last comment about shipable cores.I know there has been lots of talk about the need for/interest in a shipable cast core but honestly I think most people who frequent these websites want to do it themselves-- I know I do. That's where the open source free flow of ideas comes in and accelerates the learning process for all of us as we share our experiences instead of hide them and try to sell them. I'm not against selling cores but I think this technology is so recent and the dangers are so extreme I think we are still in the experimental phase. I envision that more skilled RMH builders and workshop leaders will emerge as time goes on just as there are skilled masons in every town. I'm not as sure about shipable cores.

[matt walker]

Welcome Michael, I'm so glad you joined us over here! Great post man, thanks for putting that all down. I think it's a great idea, how should we do it? Should we just have conversation here? Should we converse here and then maybe make a sticky wiki of materials that we can add to? I'm not the best at organizing info, but if you guys can make suggestions I bet we can come up with a great resource. I think our Educational Resources thread at the top of the permsteading forum is a fantastic resource, I'm really proud of this group for it, so I have hope we can do something similar.

I totally concur on the cores. Frankly, if someone wants to skip all this headache and get right to a heater, I think Sandy has a fantastic offering with her Dragon Heater. The one thing that never comes up in those conversations is that of legality, and one of the things I learned in DC that had the largest impact on me was that there is NO ACCEPTED TESTING METHOD that will work with a rocket heater. Sorry for the loud noises there! In other words, there's no way to sell one legally, at least in my state where even site built masonry heaters must be tested and certified. That's the main reason I've put the Walker Stove project on the back burner. It would be tens of thousands of dollars to even get to the point where you could spend another tens of thousands of dollars to try to change the policies. Ugh. So, yeah man, DIY!

Sorry for the rant, I'll give you a couple quick answers here to get things rolling for you, and we can work on the catalog resource.

Fireclay-masonry material used for the joints in standard fireplace construction. Any mason's supply that sells bricks and hardscape materials should be able to source it for you. My local mason supply doesn't stock it, but they do order it in for me. The brand I get is Lincoln 60 and is typically around $12 for a 50lb bag.

Matt's Casting Mix-14/14/1 Fireclay/Perlite/Furnace Cement. Optional-add chopped fiberglass for tensile strength.
Overview: A fairly durable casting mix for rocket heater cores that uses materials that are readily available to most.
Pros: Highly insulative, high temperature handling, relatively low cost, castable or hand shapeable.
Cons: Soft, abrades easily, will crack so must be used with an outer skin.
Substitutions: Fireclay can be replaced with local clay if suitable. Perlite can be replaced with vermiculite. Fiberglass can be replaced with other inorganic fiber. Furnace cement is an easy way to source Sodium Silicate and other refractory materials to add strength to the mix. Sodium silicate can be substituted for the Furnace cement.

Hmmm, okay, this is gonna be a lot of work! I'm picturing a sub forum at the top of this one with each of these being a topic so there could be some ongoing discussion. Hmmm.

I'm already stuck trying to organize the rest in my head! Alright, let's chew on this for a bit. Good stuff Michael.

[michaelegan]

thanks Matt. I'll call the brickyard and ask them about fireclay. i'm in northern illinois and plan to move back to central illinois within a year or so. The big box stores here don't carry basilite 50; i did some calling a few months back and ended up talking to the company that makes it in California. When I asked about its content one guy in California said "it's basically just dirt!", and said to just use backyard clay, then another woman who seemed more informed sounded a bit irritated when i told her what he said and said she would check and get back with me but never did. I'm learning from some forums about kaolin which is found more in some clays and is better; georgia red clay has higher kaolin-- but i'm not an expert on the chemistry.

Regarding the Dragon Heater cores i've been impressed with them and think they have built their product off solid research from the Europeans including Peter Berg. Their explanation of the bells was very good; I think the Russian masonry heaters have lots to offer us and we could benefit from their designs and hundreds of years in operation.

I know nothing about how to set up websites (I'm 62) but if there was a way to have people list their stuff like recipes, materials, etc. without you having to to the sorting I don't know exactly how but I don't think that has been done in other websites yet. Even general advice like you said: "fireclay.. check local brickyard" would help.

One final question: is the fiberglass you use just regular stuff from insulation batts and rolls?

thanks again for what you're doing Matt. Keep it up.

[mannytheseacow]

Hi Michaelegan,

Welcome! I'm in northern Illinois, too. I got my fireclay from Paoli Clay Company,
6879 Paoli Road
Belleville, WI 53508
Phone: (608) 845-7000

It was like $10 a bag, and a fun little community to go make the trip to pick it up. I think I've still got 2-3 bags, depending on how much you need, PM me and I can pass it your way.

[matt walker]

Michael, the fiberglass is from a boat/car repair material. It's a bit stouter than insulation batts, although I imagine that would work fine. The idea is to get some fibers in there to tie it all together. You can usually find small swatches of the stuff I used at an auto parts store, but if you have some old insulation laying around or going bad in an outbuilding, a few handfuls is all you need. What I used is referred to as matte glass.

I visited Manny on my way to DC and I have to say, you guys live in a beautiful place. I absolutely loved it there!

[michaelegan]

Thanks Manny, Matt. Manny, I'll check with the brickyard in Rockford first but thanks for the tip and offer. That area is near New Glarus Wi, lots of Swiss and lots of beer. I'm in Roscoe you're welcome to swing by you can email me at Michaelegan13@yahoo.com. I have a batchfeed rmh in my shop if you want to check it out, warm your feet. MIchael

[Oddmar]

I miss the climate and lack of fireants and snakes in Illinois, and i miss my friends a bit, and i really miss video rental stores and easy access to services, IE- Best Buy, Menard's, Sam's Club, and being 9 miles south of Peoria, pop 140,000. I didn't realize how the lower population density here in central Arkansas would make me into a flat broke craftsman.

But i don't miss the politics, the $100 a year license plate sticker, the high auto insurance rates,the Nazi Jack-Booted-Thugs wearing police uniforms, the oppressive gun laws, the yard pigs (nuisance abatement inspectors), and all the permits, fees,taxes and harassment in the Police State of Ill-Annoys.

Mike, I got my fireclay at Peoria Brick and Tile. Vermiculite (ceiling insulation) is available from Menards for $15 for a 3 cubic foot bag. Thin firebrick from Menards is $12 for a box of 6, basically the same price i paid here in Arkansas.

[mannytheseacow]

[michaelegan]

thanks Manny, Oddmar. manny, i don't get over by galena much but if i do i'll let you know, maybe if i go to farmtek. Oddmar I get what you're saying about illinois; the midwest is not an easy area to be low income or different; lots of conformity here but we create pockets wherever we are and put our agenda out there.

Michael

[Lollykoko]

You fellows are talking about vermiculite, and someone mentioned attic insulation. Now I am wondering ...

I have a property that has been gutted, still have some blow-in insulation to dispose of but haven't made it to the dump yet. Can I use that as the filler in a RMH cast core? The county just dredged my drainage ditch again, so I have a big pile of clay available.